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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-07 23:06:06 (edited 2009-06-07 23:06:36)
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@ Terror: Ah, well, I am intending to retime it... That's why I'm asking everyone to give their GMT's... @ Karuzo: Right. Thank you. @ Schwarz: I'm intending to time the meetings towards the latter part of the day (according to a majority of the member's local times). I'm making chart of all our member's GMT's so that I can time it conveniently. My hope is to confirm a time by Thursday at the latest. @ All: Terror bring up a really good point. It's alright to touch on the storytelling basics right now on this thread... Terror Makes a very valid point. The elements he proposes adds A LOT of meat and intrest to the story. The unfolding of the story is up to debate right now. For me, I'd go along the lines of Terror's 2nd suggestion: Which is: There are good endings for each character. However, a true final ending can only be unlocked if all the other arcs are completed. This is a story system similar to some of Key/Visual Arts' recent Visual Novels. Clannad, for instance had the same trait, called the "afterstory" the more recent Little Busters! also had a true ending known as "refrain". In both cases, Afterstory and Refrain start the game not from the beginning like choosing a new game, but from another point which leads to the honest ending. Well first off: SPOILER ALERT FOR TOMOYO AFTER Tomoyo after also had the afterstory concept. The main character at one point in the story, falls and hurts his head. But the game ends happily. Once "afterstory is unlocked" the game opens up a bit after the ending. It turns out that the main character's fall had caused serious complications to his head, causing him to forget everything aside from before he entered high school every week. END SPOILER So the above is one of Key's examples of the afterstory concept. Generally, these "true endings" are made to make the VN end with a lasting impact. While happy endings for the individual characters are created as one of the "possibilities" The above may take a bit more work. If we want to take this route, we'll have to know what the true ending will be, and build off the first "possibility" arcs to provide hints or allusions/clues to the honest ending. Then there's the mega complicated line of going the "Higurashi" route, where we have various endings that seem to be true, but also seem to counteract one another. It probably will take the most work, but has the capacity of generating a lot more interest towards the storyline. That's just my opinion, while giving you're GMT, please throw out yours too! ^^   |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-07 23:30:31 |
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My GMT is +6, but I think it's acting as +5 or something due to Daylight Savings or something. I'm normally on at 9AM on weekdays, but weekends I'm on around 2PM. lol I can change this, but I need a definite time so I can plan it. "where we have various endings that seem to be true, but also seem to counteract one another. It probably will take the most work, but has the capacity of generating a lot more interest towards the storyline." Yes, because the story is the most important part to any novel, Visual or otherwise. xD Glad I'm not working with the specifics. lol. There's one other thing I realized; how do you want to introduce this other character which was otherwise inaccessible? Should he be a part of the others' stories or just kind of "show up" when the game is completed? I suggest the first despite that posing some possible issues: -Will the player deduce that this character is the "he" before his arc? -Will some players question why this character can't be "played" despite him appearing in the stories? (ie: figure this setup out before they complete the game?) Which means more careful crafting for the story writers I'm afraid. Unless ou want him to more or less "appear", he has to show up in the normal game without having people suspect he's apart of it until his arc (or have the suspect very little). Again, glad I'm not working on the specifics. >_< 
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-07 23:47:27 (edited 2009-06-07 23:52:11)
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@ Terror: Alright, thank you. I think that aside from people who've been following the thread closely, the inaccessible character can pass off as a secondary character in just about all the other stories. Like another friend. All in all, it can be as simple as giving this character similar treatment to all the other secondary characters, important, but not that important. Playthroughs through each arcs should shed more light on the character. (correct me if this is wrong) Considering this will be an english release, most of these concepts, aside from seasoned VN readers or enthusiasts will probably get hit with the final ending concept for the first time, so this concept can be utilized without too much worry of people expecting it, thus make it more memorable and the sole VN developed in english to employ the technique. Likley, they'd expect a release like ours to be along the lines of something you'd find on newgrounds or something so lets release something they'll remember! I leave that as food for thought, personally I have a different idea as how to execute a final arc, but I'll leave that to the meeting. |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-08 00:05:05 |
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Maybe throw in some other 1-2 "male extras" so it would be less likely for a player to catch on, if they figure out the secret character idea, who exactly it would be. Ugo, since my attendance to the meeting is still up in the air, could you maybe PM me the idea? Throw any "restrictions" along with it you want, I just want to hear it. xD
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-08 07:36:22 |
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I'm kinda feeling a jist right now for a new plan from Terror? I'm liking it so far- so yeah, let's discuss more at the meeting? Terror: If you have more ideas xD please tell more! And aren't you interested in entering the competition? I think I can squeeze one more in... yu know, with results being delayed... Anywho.. Ugo: GMT- right. Take away 1.. hmmm, now that's a problem for Mokona.... xD Man, and to think I did whole history lesson topic on GMT and still no idea xD one thing I know is that the whole thing started with trains, because they didn't know the time for each place, and they came up with this system so there would be no more crashes xDD   |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-08 13:41:17 |
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@Mokona: My suggestions stem more from a standpoint of gameplay rather than story. Sure, it kind of effects the story, but more how it's to be told rather than the overall plot. <_< Plus, when I write something longer than a poem, I get unoriginal fast unless I'm trying to emulate or expand some other work, lol. Though, if you want an idea as for how the story should go (imo) to fit my suggestion of gameplay (and I want to hear Ugo's idea, it may be better): - Aya should not regain her memories with the normal characters. Only with the "real he" should she regain her memories. Since this is to be the "real ending", something like this should be there as a obvious difference to alert the player that this is different and more important. - There should be circumstances where Aya thinks, depending on who she is interacting with at the time, that any of the normal character may have been the he or caused the accident. While in the normal endings it's never admitted outright that any one person did it, Aya misunderstands these "circumstances" and believes whomever she is with is the "real he", but still leaves the player with a question of "is he the real one"? (In the real ending, as a way to "disprove" the other stories as being real, have these circumstances explained as to be funny little misunderstandings that Aya wouldn't catch onto unless she had her memories.) - The "real he" should appear throughout other other stories as a secondary character. This makes the player somewhat familiar with the character before their arc rather than having them simply "appear". The player should either not suspect the character to be the "real he" or suspect it very little (possibly stemming form the "why can't I choose him" notion during real gameplay). Their might be more that I misses, but I think that about sums up my suggestions as it pertains to the story. >_< (Random: I think whoever is the "real he" should have red hair. xD Idk...)
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-08 22:58:28 (edited 2009-06-08 22:59:31)
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@ Mokona: KK.. Still wiating on more GMT statements. I really cant explain it any more simply. Just subtract 1 hour from your time to get the GMT time. You could see if there's a more simple explanation out there if you are still confused... ^^' @ Terror: Those are more really useful suggestions. Well, I'll just allude to my idea loosely, much of it simply builds off of terror's suggestions. (note: I'll just call the story paths unlocked by completing the primary arcs "afterstory arcs") Me idea follows along the lines of a true ending. However, it also plays off with the higurashi concept as the so called "afterstory" arcs will have two "True endings". Which tie in and interpret the 'evidence' of the 'possibility' stories in different ways and leads to two different plausible outcomes (like a good and bad ending). But, then comes the question of what to do of the winning entry. That question is: to what lengths are we to be faithful to the winning entry, what was the contest for? Well, we can I guess make the entry into the basis/guide for the afterstories. Now, before we start going into throwing ourselves at this idea, I would like to note the added amount of work that'll be needed. We'll need to have to build the arcs with much more consideration and care, it's likley before we start any writing, we'd had determined the events of the afterstory arcs (which is more or less a double prologue/possible resulution). The stories are likley to have much more common reocurring details/themes that are presented and resolved differently. In short, more work, and more need to be sure to know exactly what small details must be presented in the respective arcs. We'd also need to be careful to remain faithful to certain guidelines set by the story. Then, on the plus side, a work like this represents a much more professional storyline, if executed well enough. With the arcs written by several authors, the notion that the stories are all just "possibilities" and seperate from one another is amplified (the higurashi effect). And finally, the VN will come off with a alluring mysterious air. But, I cant force the members to go after this; as it is a bit higher level. Maybe suited as the basis for another release. Still, the memory loss has much potential to create an air of mystery and uncertainty in endings, so the choice is merely determined by the willinness of our writing staff. |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-09 08:26:12 (edited 2009-06-09 20:54:39)
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"two different plausible outcomes (like a good and bad ending)." Something like pick enough of the "good" options and it'll work out, otherwise you'll get a "I moved on, but I still wonder." line or something? If that's the case, would that be only for the final ending or for all "endings", including the "possible endings"? I've only played one VN personally, and I didn't quite like having to find the 5 people's good ending before getting the extra ending, especially at how long it was. >_< But there is that replay-ability in trying again, but that depends solely on the quality of the work, not only in story but in the art and voice-overs. If the VN was good the first time through, I'm sure people will enjoy going through the same story another time to try and achieve the "good ending". Then again, I still find that idea (good and bad for the possible endings) tedious and boring, considering a VN is supposed to be like a novel, but I guess it's also one of those "choose your own adventure" kind of things too. >_< So, good old suggestion time. If you're looking to make good/bad endings for all the possibilities, make each instance unique aside from a common theme in the bad endings like "it didn't work out" or something. Then, allow the afterstory to be unlocked upon getting a ending for every character, regardless of good/bad. If the endings are unique enough, the player is still satisfied regardless of the good/bad endings and it could work, and if the player is curious enough, they can work to see the other good/bad endings they've missed. Also, this makes the whole notion of adding the "choose what to say" into the novel more valid as it does determine the outcome over time. If it's just the afterstory that has a good/bad ending, the main problem lies in making the "choose what to say" options have some kind of meaning other than changing the next 2-5 lines of dialog or else, why have them short of making sure the player is actually paying attention? Then again, if the individual stories are crafted well enough, it may not matter, but I'm sure people are expecting these choices and an effect on their outcome. Also, while I'm on the idea of repetition (somewhere up there), I strongly suggest a "Skip" button be added, but only for scenes a player has completed in their entirety. I don't think a "skip all button" helps any, especially when the point of a VN is to relay a story; however, a "skip what I've already read" button makes sense to me since if a person knows what is happening in a scene, especially if it's the starting scenes where the characters are introduced before any real "who do I pick" choice is made... Let me change that idea, or rather suggest a new idea. After completing the game once, maybe allow the player to either start a new game at the start or at a point in the story where the story's split into their character specific arcs. The only thing I suggest be added for this is that rather than having to sit through the "opening arc(s)", they have to listen to a simplified version, like the review at the start of a episode of a show which explains "what has happened thus far". This way you let the skip happy get a good piece out of the way and to prevent people from stopping partway due to repetition. Oh well, there's more elements to think about. >_< (Man, that's long.) Addition: Wait wait wait, Lax..."Aya's cousin". Is there something I'm missing or will he not be a possible interaction character? I assume he's going to be with the "but recently he seems to be trying to keep her distance from her, -why?" bit... >_> Cousins in a relationship seems a little weird no?
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-09 23:21:36 |
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@ Terror: Well, it was more or less my intention to keep the good/bad endings limited to the afterstory arc. So going off the suggestions you made there... Considering we're going down the Higurashi arc... I suppose to make better effective use of the "choices" we can say that each individual arc the same, but within that arc there are choices that reveal different information. (such as say, before a murder scene the player unknowingly chooses where they witnesses it in the form of who they decide to go talk to that evening.) In short, the choices will simply have the same basic scene setup, but present it in a different way... or kind of move things in a different direction without making it so different as to have to make a separate ending. I'd call that the most effective way to make use of the choices and not need to make a complex branching story... I agree on the skipping option, we'll probably really need that if we want players to do replays. I... think that it's a possible idea to have a sot of "ending viewer" that shows all the endings starting from the end of the last choice's effects. I might also suggest there be a function that shows choices already made (Such as in Tayutama, there being a little spirit symbol by choices that had already been made before.) FOr you're suggestion of skipping straight to certain choices... I'm slightly leaning no on that. This is probably the conservative side of me coming out... But if the rest of the team finds it to be worth inputting too, then by all means. We could also have a skip to choice option... Now, going onto the topic of replayability... much of the story's punchline lies around Aya's lost memory. And the people around her. Such a story has lots of potential... I cant say much until everyone else starts presenting the proposals during the meeting. In my opinion, talking form a 'Consumer consideration" point of view... the Broken Higurashi Styled Storyline seems like a very plausible idea for this VN's emphasis on the mystery element surrounding the boyfriend. The story can be simple or complex, it's only that with the complex node, the story becomes less of a generic amnesic girl (not to bash your storyline, mokona) plotline, but into a story with characters with real feelings and motivations. With people continually second-guessing the true endings we presented to them. A more likley candidate for having replayability even after all the stories had been completed. On the part bout Lax.... now, you'll be surprised the volume of anime (even more so visual novels) with cousinly romance. And yeah, just think about the "Why?" a little deeper. @ All: Ah, it's been a really long week for me (and it's only tuesday) If ya got confused with the abovr, I'll give a really simplified version of all that text: This was basically about how to execute the storyline. We discussed how exactly we'd reach the ending, and of a "true ending" unlocked by completing all the other primary arcs focused on one of the main character. Then, we when deeper, about how all the arcs where related to one another. We concluded that everything would have a sort of "higurashi" setup. Where the arcs are merely "possibilities" and reveal information leading us to the true "afterstory" arc and ending. Furthermore, we discussed about the importance of the parts in the game where you have to make a choice. I suggested that the choices after the ones that decide where character you'd follow would affect the scene you'd see after. This can range form changing where you are when something happens or doing something completely different and missing out on something while getting othe information you'd need to get in a second playthrough. Then we suggested options, we came up for a "skip" button to skip text. A "ending viewer" to show all the unlocked endings, and a function that appears when you need to make a choice that shows which choices you'd already made. Terror suggested a function that allows us to start off a new game at a certain episode or important part to skip through other introductory dialog. I countersuggested a "skip to choice option" instead of one where you choose chapters from the menu (this is the conservative side of me talking). This last one especially I need everyone elses opinion. Also on the meeting times. Chearz suggested, I believe 2 PM GMT. For consideration of the majority of us in Southeast Asia. At the moment, this seems to be one of the better candidates. (sorry to us on the other side of the world) Any comment? |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-09 23:57:51 (edited 2009-06-10 01:43:46)
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Hmm, I was playing around with Renpy and I noticed these: - It comes with the "skip seen" and "skip all" automatically, but I'm sure that can be changed. - Unlimited saves. - Nothing along the lines of a "scene re-player". Ntl, I was able to make this test VN. Check it out and see if that is roughly what you were thinking as a base for the story. EDIT: Fixed the code, it works now, lol. <_<
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-10 07:13:12 |
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@UGO: remember: 2 pm because it's summer.... normally we will count 1 GMT^^ if there's someone with area more to the west from UGO then will need to wake up early^^ and those more to the east than me will need to stay wake until night^^ I hope I can find some more people...  |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-10 18:06:50 (edited 2009-06-10 18:08:17)
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@Ugo- After thinking it over a bit more, put me down as a volunteer for English Proofreading as well, as long as you are still accepting volunteer's for that position of course. I don't have a Masters Degree or anything, but English was one of my strongest subjects throughout High School. Also, Testing (Although this isn't really a department per se, since you said it will mostly be made up of team members). Being a gamer however, I have to have my name in for this. Also, for your IM meeting, are you looking for people to discuss the story overall, or only those people who will actually be writing the story?    |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-11 15:05:39 |
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Well Jon, I'm not in for specifics, but I signed up for it nonetheless and was added. Of course, I'm in it to see how it'll go and, after these last couple of posts, to see how it'll tie into game play if anything. I'm sure if you give Ugo your details, you can join in.
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-11 16:12:32 |
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@ Jon: Alright, I'll be sure to edit tyhose in as soon as I can. Just about all the departments could use some extra volunteers. The IM meeting is open to everyone. All you need to do is send me you're info and GMT time difference. Then you're IM contact is added and made availible. I also would need to give you the contact info for everyone else participating. @ Schwarz: K's, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. @ Terror: Yeah, that is the base minimum for most VN novels. (I played though it) If you're talking about code and such, I'd suggest to contact Basil our head coder. |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-11 16:16:54 |
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Alright, well, I guess I'll jump in to that. I'll PM you my IM details. |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-12 06:18:56 |
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Looks like Ugo couldn't get in to gendou, and asked me to leave this message: The online meeting tomorrow would start at 2PM GMT ----- @Jon: Ugo got your message, and would PM the master list ASAP --- That's all xD 
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-12 07:19:05 |
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*Pokes* My names spelt wrong in the staff bit. Sheash, reading all these posts have made me realise that this is going to be more complicated than I thought.  |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-12 10:21:55 |
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I like Ugo and Terror's idea with all the separate endings, unlocking arcs and functions to skip parts and have a chapter button, ending viewer and stuff! 2PM tomorrow.. okay... so that's about.... 1PM for Mokona ^^ *claps for Mokona* Did I get that right Ugo-nee? |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-12 13:15:57 |
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Okay, now that the goddamned exams are over, I can now go into Gendou as I please. So, the meeting's at 1400 GMT, huh? That means... I need to log-in at 9 o'clock in my time. That's a doable. For the meeting, can you guys confirm something I picked up from the bits that I've read on this thread? From what I've picked up, I understand that there would be only one true ending, which is unlockable only after every story arc has been finished. That, and other things about technicality (which suggested to me that Terror would be a great addition to the coding team. Hell, he's better than I am!). |
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Re: Gendou - Visual Novel Project
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on 2009-06-12 17:12:27 |
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>_> I just played around with it. lol Yes, a "real ending" is unlocked when all the "possible endings" are seen by the player, but from little I've seen in the program, that might take quite a bit of ingenuity to do. Maybe make it so at the end of a game, the game doesn't "end", but rather cycles back to the start with a flag in the code saying "So-so complete". Ramble ramble, save it for tomorrow I guess. Btw, will this be a text chat or a mic chat? >_<
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