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Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
on 2007-03-04 09:20:54 |
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Yes, a very clichèd question. Asked, many, many, many times. But it is nevertheless amusing. Let us separate this question into several parts for discussion. It is a question based on three assumptions; firstly that machines exist, secondly that knowledge exists, and thirdly, that knowledge is attainable. Without these assumptions, the question would be of no consequence, regardless of definition of any of the terms; if machines do not exist, it would be the equivalent of asking whether flying pigs can know. If knowledge does not exist, it would be flatly impossible to know, and there is no question being asked. If knowledge is unattainable in all forms, there is no reason to ask the question in the first place. Therefore without these three assumptions, the question does not make sense and is therefore unanswerable. So what is there to discuss? Existence itself, whether machines truly exist. Knowledge; whether knowledge, or even truth, exists, or is attainable. And finally, whether the machine can indeed know. Fun, yes? And now, my point of view. My first postulate is that “Knowledge†is a representation of a separate entity which I shall title the “truthâ€. Truth here is defined as a objective reality which an omniscient being perceives to be correct and accurate. We shall not yet dwell in the definition of truth as that which can be relative, since we are dealing with knowledge of truth which is attainable. In order to create a second postulate, I must now define a machine. From the first postulate, which defines truth as attainable, we can see that should humans be included in the definition of machines, then machines can indeed “know†in the way that we have defined “knowing†to be. The concept of humans being mere machines is one that has been contemplated by several philosophers, the most notable being the theory of mechanism, primarily anthropic mechanism. Anthropic mechanism theorizes that all human actions can be determined by physical phenomena; while an individual humans actions may appear chaotic and at times, unpredictable, they are in fact the effect of many minute causes which are invisible to an observer. While this theory appears to denounce all human notions of free will and choice, it is nevertheless plausible, albeit impossible to either disprove or prove. At any rate, can humans even know? The ability to know is a strange ability indeed; from, my first and second postulates, it is true that it is possible for a computer to possess knowledge, in the sense that one can key information into a word document and store it there. However, this does not imply that it knows; this would be similar to a child being forced to remember an equation, such as “E = mc2â€. While he may repeat it, and memorize it, the child does not know that E = mc2, and while there is knowledge and truth within that statement itself, it is unattainable to the child, which suggests that the ability to know involves comprehension of the knowledge which is stored. Does a computer then understand the information it processes? While a calculator program may be able to calculate 1+1=2, and will always produce an answer of “2†for the equation “1+1â€, the comprehension of 1+1 may not exist. For a human, the question “why does 1+1=2†would seem a strange question, since in the human understanding (within decimal systems of counting) 2 separate single objects always are counted as 2 objects. Yet the methodology of a computer for calculating 1+1 is strictly logical, functioning within the rules of mathematics that are preprogrammed into it. Computers function only within their own programming and cannot process information beyond a set of rules. Yet again it is impossible to state that this is not comprehension in itself, as the human notion of comprehension is excessively vague. In a sense, the act of understanding something is a logical one, in which several postulates are used to form a conclusion that is believed to be true. This is similar to a computer’s process of attaining a conclusion. However, this does not affirm a computer’s comprehension of the initial postulates, such as the concept of “1â€. The ability to teach the concept of “1†to a toddler who does not have a grasp of the English language is nearly impossible to explain; yet it is true that the toddler does eventually learn what 1 is. Is it sufficient then, from a computer’s ability to manipulate mathematical functions, to conclude that it does indeed know what 1 is? Certainly not, as it would be impossible for a computer to define 1 as something that is separate from what 1 is programmed in it to be. It is similar to the child, who is able to say E = mc2 without knowing what it means. Have fun.   |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by animefanrk2k
on 2007-03-12 13:21:47
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In all honesty, I am not going to delve into this that far at all. I'll simply state my thoughts on it. Firstly, machines do exist. I consider the word "machine" much more than a simple metaphor. I also take into account the literal term, which would include a simple tool like a hammer, or something on the scale of a laptop. So yes, machines do exist. Second, knowledge does exist. By definition, knowledge is merely information, whether that information is understood or not, as long as the information is there for us to know, it exists. Third, to tie in with the "second", knowledge is attainable. If it weren't, it wouldn't exist to us, since we wouldn't "know" about it. In any case, can machines know? Very simply and according to my definition, yes. Can they understand? Now THAT would be a different question for me. XD  |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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Why not expariment. Create a simple machine and have it drive around in any random pattern. Put sensors in its outer hull that sense when it strikes something. Program the machine to not set off the sensors, but don't tell it that driving into something will set them off. Will the machine already know not to drive into anything? Will it crash and learn? Or will it totally defy its orders and keep setting off its sensors? I know nothing of electronics, so I can't do this expariment. I'd love to hear the results though.
Wise Man says: "Take a dog off its leash and it will wander."
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by zparticus27
on 2007-03-13 23:09:36
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| hmmm i agree with animefanrk...machine can attain knowledge since we input knoledge to it...like that sensor thing engineer said...but it cannot understand that knowledge its been given... |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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But aren't humans just fulfilling a sense of reason with knowledge for thet simple truth that exists? 1+1 will equal two in any language foreign or alien it may be. The reasoning behind human logic that is taught to us when we are young is that if Billy had one apple and Jimmy gave him another apple how many apples does Billy have? Two. While humans may think that we are bigger than machines because we listen to logic and reason, something lacking of a machine, since the answer is the same will that make us any better? Or are we really just filling the mysterious void that we need to confirm our existence? "I think, therefore I am." Given that generally the understanding gained from such truths are probably and generally considered universal, the prior statement was more of an afterthought though it seemed like it began as a rebuttal. Though I have limited knowledge in programming, if you were to create a machine like that, unless you program it to "learn" then it simply won't learn. Think of old fighting games versus new fighting games. In some old 2d fighters you could spam the kick button a thousand times. The program knew the character was being damaged, but did not learn how to counter. Newer fighting games have programmed much more complicated fighting strategies into AI so it's not as easy as it was before (usually). |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
  
on 2007-03-23 10:20:02 |
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Machines think.. Only as much as we allow/able them to... Conciously or sub-conciously... Period...  Claimed |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by MiCHiYo μ
on 2007-04-02 07:46:40 (edited 2007-04-02 07:47:06)
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It is evident that we have another International Baccalaureate student in here. XD In order to answer this question, I will need to find my essay. It's somewhere in this pile of paperwork. But yes, I have answered this question in a subject called Theory of Knowledge, and I shall share it with you. I'll be reading Jovin's in the meantime. ^_^ -michiyo- 
 beware. the QueeN oF SiGGieS is here. kill that mr. scrolly or your siggy goes BAI BAI. it's solidarity month! let's be united! +[-- GeNDouNiaNS: i am half-back! visit my blog by clicking on the siggie banner! updated: 12.07.07 --]+
~*..:: i'm never going to give up... if i do, then it wasn't worth trying. ::..*~
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
on 2007-04-16 20:03:10 (edited 2007-04-19 15:57:05)
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I, too, agree with animefanrk and zparticus. In my opinion, machines can attain knowledge in a sense that we humans input it into their memory. But it will never understand the knowledge it has been given nor understand why it was given in the first place, or understand its purpose...
What if I jump out
of this speeding jeepney? Fly without wings Reach for the grey-painted heaven And out into the sea of infinity?  |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
on 2007-04-18 12:52:48 |
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I think now machines can’t understand the knowledge we give them. But in the future it might be possible. How does the human brain work so that we can know? What enables us to know. There are electro-chemical processes. And somehow they enable us to think. These things have to follow physical laws. It has to be possible to imitate a human brain and create machines which can know.   |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by Poison_Apple
on 2007-04-22 18:40:30
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LOL.... wrote a paper on this topic... my response... yeah they know, but to an extent of the ability to understand and to gain knowledge. For instance, Machines are program to know through math and all that hard stuff that I can't understand - language, but we - humans - can learn from emotion and all sorts of things - mistakes and feelings. LOL if you want to know more, I'm more gladly to talk about it... Also there are many great moview that are made under such topic... such as: AI - Artificical Intelligence I Robot The Matrix (the first one) Bicenntenial Man and so on.... |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
on 2007-08-01 08:48:46 |
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Jumping right to the 3 questions from the beginning: 1) Do machines exist? Yes, of course they exist. A machine by definition is "an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work", so stop dodging the real question with easy ones. 2) Does knowledge exist? Yes knowledge exists. Knowledge is nothing more than a culmination of facts and experience. It would have to exist for us to even be able to have this conversation otherwise we wouldn't be here. 3) Is knowledge attainable? Yes, and for the same reasons as my answer to question number 2. SO, as for the ultimate question whether a machine can know? yes, some machines can know. Whether it be in the form of storing knowledge on a hard drive from being 'taught' by a person inputting data, or whether it be in the form of gears on a clock, machines are capable of attaining and retaining knowledge thanks to their human counterparts. And before you go saying "oh well then, machines don't REALLY know it since they have to be taught", everyone that is capable of speaking a language had to have been at least indirectly taught by the people around them. Thus there is very little difference between how a machine learns and we learn, granted, machines are much more limited in their learning capability and ability to use their knowledge compared to people.
Beware the quiet people,
You don't know their intentions
(small signatures are sooo much cooler since they don't annoy people trying to read through posts!) |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
on 2007-09-14 05:41:16 |
A machine can have an intelligence.. but we still lack the technology to create an intelligence capable of possessing a free will and can be self-aware.  |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
 
on 2007-10-30 19:51:27 (edited 2007-10-30 19:53:29)
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No, why? Computers are run by software and thus cannot know. Computers are just given written instructions on how to work, so everything a computer can do is dictated by those set of instructions. Also it is because, humans don't know everything. So if the source is flawed, then the result is flawed. Comparing this to Plato's Allegory of the Cave, computers will be the chained men. Except, the only difference is that, they all will never be unchained. And besides, Why do you think there are things called "glitches" and "bugs" and "crashes" in the first place?!  |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by zparticus27
on 2007-10-30 19:53:24
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a very good statement skyl... artificial AI is (IMO)impossible to say the least... |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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Wé can speak of machines as having "implicit knowlege" but they themselves will not easily make such a statement by themselves, so that's allready kind of a givaway. Computers can take their own content as input for further processing but I don't think this is the same as the human idea of reflection. In epistemics, knowlege is often defined as "justified, true belief". Easy to see this does not go for machines; they don't care about the origin of their content, it's just there so they do their mindless operations on it. The same way they are not susceptible for the notion of true, to them it just needs to be of proper format or something. And ofcoarse the belief-part of it. This is a semantical question often pondered by philosophers and scientists of AI. To give you a good idea of one particular problem about machines and semantics, look for Searle's tought experiment of the "chinese room" and it's elaborations. I think intelligence is something which can be simulated by machines very well, but we shouldn't make any psychologistic projections on machines. As of yet, though computers can make -I don't know how many- millions of operations per second and are extremely usefull (necessary!) to us, they have no beliefs they believe in, attitudes attained, feelings being felt, nor knowledge, except for symbols stored away in a nice abacus. It's just a piece of stuff, like a rock, though much more intricate and very usefull. But let me say too that there are philosophers which believe that even the most simple rock has knowledge (like the philosopher Buskes), knowledge about it's history and the history of it's environment. But most of us would probably agree that this is just a matter of "traces", becomming knowledge only after being put into context and relevant deductions made from it by some intelligence. With the computer-age still booming away, we might find astonishing phenomena emerging from the ever more complex technology and programming, which may need for new words. Let's just not confuse them with our human terms. (I am trying to avoid a whole quagmire of other philosophical problems; mind-fysics relations, other-minds problem, and many many more... So that's kinda lame of me, but these problems are all very much intertwined and not easily solved I'm afraid, great stuff though!) |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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the question is, can a machine know. now, excluding attitudes, emotion, and the ability to reflect or ponder deeply and form opinions... a computer can be programmed to follow a set of rules, just as a child can be taught arithmetic. give a computer a calculation, and it will give you the answer, based on those rules, just as a child gives you an answer if you had asked him or her a math question. a machine "knows" how to calculate... i'll finish my thought later, i have to go to bed >.< 
wooo maplestory |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by
 
on 2008-11-29 20:37:59 |
Computers can only know as much as the person who programmed/use it. Therefore if you put 2+1 when you meant to put 1+1, the answer will be wrong and right.The computer will calculate the problem it's given with the algorithms it has. Therefore if the program is flawed or the questioned is flawed, the answer will also be wrong, to no fault of the machines. How is this relevant? Well, knowledge is such a mysterious thing. No matter how much knowledge a person has, they can never know everything, therefore they posses SOME knowledge and not knowledge itself. Humans haven't got a good grasp on knowledge yet, so why should machines, created by humans, have any knowledge? What is knowledge, knowledge comes with cognisance, which is purely a human thing. No matter how complicated a computer is made, it cannot be self aware because it is basically operating from algorithims and zeros and ones. It may be able to imitate cognisance, but it can never KNOW true awareness.  |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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it can't know true awareness, but it knows what 1+1 is. nothing can know everything.
wooo maplestory |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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well...expanding what shige is saying... how do you explain a computer who 'knows' how to beat the russian chess champion at his own game?
wooo maplestory |
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Re: Can a machine know? Ohohoho.
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by Immortal_Technique
on 2008-12-03 07:47:12
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| anything is possible...... |