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Religion
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I am making this topic to see how diverse gendou users are on their religious beliefs. Do you believe on your own accord or is it just your parents brainwashing you before you have a chance to decide for yourself. I am atheist who believes God is like Santa Claus for adults. I actually study religion throughout history and the countless bloodshed that has been split for causes that was unnecessary and immoral. But we still use religion as a way of life. Each religion has its own set of rules to follow to achieve peace and a place in their own version of heaven or hell. But my question is why a person throws out all common sense and logic when religion comes up. Religion in the past was used to give answer for the unanswered questions we had. But with today's invention why do we believe in stories that lost their purpose ?
All Alone in this so call World
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Re: Religion
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by
on 2006-07-19 19:26:10 |
This could turn out to be very interesting indeed. Good idea. Me personally. I'm considered highly controversial. I am Christian-Wicca. Not many ppl can understand my logic here and only judge me and put me down for it. If you honestly take the time and look, all religions are very similar.  |
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Re: Religion
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by Ravensender
on 2006-07-19 19:50:21
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Oh, this is a good topic, D Grave. Thank you so much. It really reminds of the old days. Personally, I'm not very religious. I can see why people like religion though, since the ideas of a higher power with a 'plan for everything' and a rewarding afterlife are much more comforting than thinking that you just go through life, die, and that's it. And yes, religion is something people can go overboard with, like in the Middle East where fighting has and is occurring over what's desert. I'll also say that while there are some similarities among religions in some senses, but then again they are altered by the culture itself. Like in Japan how something like Shintoism can be blended with Buddhism. About common sense and religion, I've seen this before when I've debated in classes, and the only response I got is "The Bible says..." It is irritating, yet again the concept that doing and believing in certain things leads to a rewarding life and afterlife is something that motivates many. This ironically enough leads to discrimination and what could be considered immoral and unjust actions. Actually, the logical fallacies are part of led me away from religion.
The end of the weekend is something that's inevitable... Like a test. Or the Apocalypse.
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Re: Religion
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 TIE_Defender2nd 
on 2006-07-19 20:09:50 |
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this is quite a good thread. I quite like it. In my point of view, relighion should be present as a guideline for people. At one point in our lives, we sometimes feel "lost" and wish that there's some sort of "light" tha would illuminate our way so that we could follow the proper path. However, religion is merely a basic guidelines, nothing more. at some point, we should surpass our own religion and establish ourselves a belief and principles that would apply to us. But that doesn't also mean that we shouldn't treat our religion lightly when we reach that final stage. anywayz, as for some people losing reationality when it comes to their religion, I believe it's because those people have "cleansed" their identity and submitted themselves to their religion blindly. so basically it's loss of their identity - they got no minds/ decision of their own. Why they do that? I don't know... But i would like to see the day when people would understand each other's beliefs and hearts and live TRULY in harmony. few weeks ago, i've watched a movie called "Kingdom of Heaven", and i have to say, one of best movies i've seen. It does deals with issues of difference in people's religion ( in this case, Christians and Islams) and you will see these characters - although their religion are different - they will respect and honour each other's beliefs and perceive each other as human beings, not some foreign "aliens". there's more i want to say, but that would take long... so go wat ch that movie if u want to. :)  |
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Re: Religion
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by
on 2006-07-19 20:17:48 |
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D Grave, thank you oh so very much. It's been such a long time since we've had a genuine discussion here. Religion is how you control people, faith is what keeps us going. As far as the whole idea of being saved goes, it's part of religion not faith(see above). Religion states what you must do in this life to be born in a better place in the next. Hinduism, for example, uses caste systems that say where you are born is dictated by what you have done in your past life. Think about it for second though, all the rich people are born into wealth because they were good in their past lives, and the bad: bad. If you were a rich noble what would you do to insure that those without wealth do not cause social unrest, you tell that if they are good now then in the forever future they will live better. This is the basis of the entire time the Catholic church has existed. The middle ages are especially a prime example. The literacy rate during the middle/dark ages was >1% ask them what 2+2 is and they can't answer, but ask them a question about their religion and they can answer it instantly. Why? because that's all they were taught. They worked every day, except for Sunday when they all went to mass. In essence they were the perfect society for the nobles; to stupid to think so they worked, and to religious to do crime. All the nobles had to do was sit and watch. The peasants would go to work in the morning, come home at night, increase the population slightly, wouldn't learn anything, wouldn't think deeply, and they wouldn't try to kill each other/revolt. Don't believe me, look at the slave trade, they kept slaves illiterate for a reason. If you can read, you can learn, and if you can learn you can plan, and if you can plan, you don't need to work on a sugar-cane plantation anymore. Faith, on the other hand, is a common idea. Your interpretation of it may be different but everyone has it. From atheists to devout Muslims, they all have faith in what they believe. Why is this? This question harkens to a quote I read not too long ago: "god did not create man, man created god." Life is finite, and we see death everyday. We fear things we do not understand, and we do not understand death. We, as humans, create faith in a belief that we feel comfortable about dieing. Whether it is 72 virgins, or nothing at all, we all come to our own ideas of what things will be like when we die. It's the security blanket we all snuggle up to at night, our own little comfort zone. We're fine as long as someone doesn't have a better blanket. That's why religious wars start; people see other religions as a threat to their comfort zone. If you hand a nice fleece blanket, but someone else hand a seeming better one, many people would instinctively envy that other person. This is a classic "the grass is greener" scenario. Even if we have to pay a troll under the bridge we will always try to get to the other side. "It is not the end of the physical body that should worry us. Rather, our concern must be to live while we're alive — to release our inner selves from the spiritual death that comes with living behind a facade designed to conform to external definitions of who and what we are." ~ Elisabeth Kübler-Ross That's my view on religion. I hate it, but I do have faith. I have faith in an afterlife(or lack there-of) and I have my own beliefs about it. I don't trust some guy standing reading from a book that's been translated so many times the meaning has changed. Translation invaribly leads to misinterprtation(socks have a brand new taste), and that guy's just that a guy. A guy reading from a poorly translated, mass-produced, edited-to-suit-the-church, book doesn't apeal to me. |
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Re: Religion
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by
 DaedalusMachina
on 2006-07-19 22:17:15 |
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A good piece from D-Ninja marking a clear separation between faith and religion. The two come under so many definitions, that, for the sake of argument, you almost have to agree on a singular definition for both words in order to even be understood. The way I see those people that D Grave describes, those who caused a great deal of bloodshed for their relgion, is that those are not true believers, at least speaking from a Christian standpoint. Christians are supposed to call sanctuary for people, sinners and believers alike, to guide the misguided, and all that. Leaders, likely corrupt, twisted such beliefs into a violent masquerade in order to further their own power over the lands. Holding to the idea of sanctuary is incredibly difficult, so many people slip. This does not mean that my views follow that of the Christians. My personal views follow something a little more basic. Faith is an imporant factor in just about everybody's life, regardless of what that faith is towards. This can be interpreted into saying that regardless of the religion, or lack there-of, that you follow, it is correct. The only thing that separates the Muslims, the Christians, the Pagans, the Ancient Greeks, the Buddhists, and all the others is the human element. Humans are widely known to be fools, so putting your faith so greatly into merely their words is likely foolhardy, but not so much into their idealistic theories. It is also my belief that faith transcends logic. The reason people, as you say, throw "out all commmon sense and logic" is because Logic fails to suffice, and requires something that goes beyond it. |
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Re: Religion
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Heh, I remember reading these before. Basically for the sake of a thread that deserves attention, I will re-enstate my beliefs. I don't belief anything these religions love to just spew out, for lack of a better term. I am too busy living to worry about some red horny guy with a fork trying to burn me with an easy-bake-oven in the afterlife or some old guy with a beard who loves to play skee-ball and invent shrinky dinks. The afterlife can be worried about after one dies. Until the netherworld overflows and undead invade the earth, wasting precious living time by answering questions with no answer is pointless. How was the universe created? No one knows, but we can use our limited imagination and say a real powerful guy with a beard did. Suddenly evenyone starts to agree thats a logical explantion, but then these other people think a six-armed elephant did it. So they go to war over a childish argument. Let us now argue who would win in a fight between Count Chocula and Tony the Tiger.  Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: Religion
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by S-a-c-h-i-e-l
on 2006-07-19 23:37:47
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YES!! Good thread good thread!! *pachi pachi for D Grave* I have different views on religion than the other posters of this thread it seems... I view most religions as good, because they promote peace, harmony, love, and most other things good, thus increasing the overall happiness of people. Sure, there may be 200 religions out there, and either one or none is true, but why not join one? Ideally, everyone in, say, Christianity wouldn't steal, kill, commit adultery, or lie at all; but some people are say they're followers of Christ because their parents say so, or because it's what their friends are doing, and they don't care for what it teaches at all. Others may call themselves Christian to gain something; and I simply ask "Why?" 1: By being part of a religion (and really being a part of it), you could make your life and others' lives happier. And it could be that 1 out of 200 religions that's the true religion. 2: Manipulating or being a part of a religion but not obeying it's teachings not only messes up things for other people in the religion, but it discourages people from being a part of it as well because they'll think that all of members are like you. 3: Call it being brain-washed, call it not having free will, call it whatever you want. I'm a part of my religion, and I'm not gonna do what people say blindly. As many people I know say, "Don't take what I say to be true; go find out for yourself." I believe what I will believe, and if it turns out I got the 1/200 I'll be working to save your souls ^_~ And it could also be entirely possible that there is no true religion, that all gods and goddesses and 6-armed elephants are non-existant. If so, why not make your life on earth a little better? There's my two yen, and Tony'd win; he's grrrreat!!  |
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Re: Religion
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by OwdEe sh4H
on 2006-07-20 01:34:37
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well, i also have different view from all of these previous threads. honestly, i believe in my religion since i'm small. i'm not saying that i'm very pious, but i do restrain myself from being untruthful to my religion everyday in my life. i love the feeling of God being wth me, hearing my prayers, watching over me. coz i don't believe that man create God. well, maybe this is bcoz i have religion. but i dont so either^^ no. maybe religion serves as a way to redeem one's sins but i think religion serves as something much more than just that. and religion may be defined as sth different from faith,bt to me, religion and faith come together. because ur religion affects ur faith. ur beliefs. ur princples. almost everything. but then again, for people wthout any particular religion, this case does not seem like it. what i remember from one of my classes are, we cannot absolutely say that the other's religion/faith etc is wrong because maybe throughout his life so far, that religion/faith etc works for him. and urs work for u. and as much as we wish to truly segregate religion and faith from each other by defining them or whatever, these two come together most of the time. because religion shows u what to believe in, it develops into a faith. and faith comes from what u believe in. maybe if what we have faith in does not seem similar wth any religions exist in the world, then we consider it as truly a faith. n we consider ourselves as someone who does not have any religion. and religion is not juz about explaining all those illogical phenomena or stories. religion also brings knowledge and history in it. whether to believe them or not, it's up to us. n yes, i don't think everyone can answer why they practise their religion easily. of course, i had my times when i was younger that i thought i only practise this religion bcoz my parents do but for real believers, they know and they cn feel the truth in their religion. and it does not called brainwashing.   |
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Re: Religion
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i do have some friends that is into some religions just because their parents are into those religions. they arent even practice what their religions really tell them to. those people really need to start thinking on their own instead of following something that they are unsure of. i believe religion is like a guideline to the life of its followers. all religion conducts moral and ask its followers to do good and not do bad things, its just like the laws and the rules. the only thing is they practice like, if you do good, you'll have some credits and if you do bad, you'll bear some sins. as for religious extremists, no religion approves those deeds. no religion asks to kill and shed blood. they are just using the name of their religion to do those things, which will taint the religion in other people's eyes, bringing misconception on the religion itself. faith is a strong word. i always wonder why people have faith, why people believe in something they have never witnessed or seen. easiest example is the existense of God and his creations, the afterlife and stuff. i also found out that praying, searching and believing the existence of someone stronger and mightier than human themselves are human's nature, because human need to seek protection and the feeling of security. personally, i dont believe in gods in form of statues or handmade, i dont believe in god that comes in human form and such. we can find security by understanding our fears, and miracles just wont happen unless we act with our own two hands...and brain. anyway, religion or no religion, people shouldnt be discriminating others just because of what they believe. its unreasonable when people would not be friends with people from other religions or people who criticize other religions. well, let them believe in what they have faith in. and we should believe in what we think is right.  |
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Re: Religion
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...how we all wish people dont discriminate one another because of the differences in their religions and races... |
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Re: Religion
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by
on 2006-07-20 05:56:12 |
i will agree with ai-hime we should not descriminate because of it  --> |
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Re: Religion
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by OwdEe sh4H
on 2006-07-20 06:57:01
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what u two guys above me said is right; abt not discriminating others based on their religions. thank god that i live in a multi racial country, so i learn how to respect other people's religon and belief. i see that as an advantage. like what i learn from my religion, God make humans from all kinds of backgrounds and races to let us get to know each other. so let's do that^^ i believe we need to be moderate in everything we do. if there is sth abt other ppl that's good and beneficial and does not oppose our belief, why must we bear any grudges against them? take the good part, leave the bad ones. but don't need to be so direct abt it. glad that we cn all get along here^^ |
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Re: Religion
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this is an amazing discussion. I haven't had a HEAVY discussion like this for a long time. yes this is a really important matter that -of course- will decide the future of mankind if those 'religion extremes' agree with what we all said here. For me, I simply believes that God exists and He grants us freedom to be ourselves. What I mean is... We're humans right? And humans committed sins at all times and I have to say that I'm proud to be a sinner, coz that is the proof of my very own existance. God will understand me, I'm sure of it. This saddens me, maybe some of you have seen what happened to my country, Indonesia. The moslems extremes really want to take over Indonesia by their beliefs. They simply protests pornography as "a devil's act" and are building power to make a new law called "Anti-Pornography and Anti-Pornoact". That means, there'll be no adult contented material in the bookstore, and we have to wear long dresses to cover our legs and forearms. No swimming either except if you wanna swim with your clothes on. I mean... WTF?! They're (Those moslems extremes) really getting to my nerves when they assaulted the Indonesian-Playboy Magazine office. They said that the magazine itself is evil, it'll conduct men to sins. And I said, that magazine isn't worthy enough to be called Playboy. In the whole magazine, the playmates are fully dressed. It looks more like a fashion magazine to me seriously. What are those guys thinking? Maybe they couldn't attract ladies so they're jealous with the Playboy staffs lol.
Gendou City Crossover RP! ~Coming soon~
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Re: Religion
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@H oi, careful with your statements, if any of those extremes read that last sentence of yours, you can start praying... Heh... I think this country can't be helped when it comes to religion... The law said "equality to all religion", my ass... In fact moslems here are the majority and most of the time they can do what they want without getting into trouble... This fact has once made me think that it'll be better if i become an atheist, screw those religions they only bring hatred to each other anyway... But then i realize that it's the people who are wrong not the religion. So i stick in being a christian... Well, maybe nobody wants to read what i typed above, it's just my rants to my fellow countrymen... Anyway, what i think about religion is it's something made to preserve the harmony with each other using people's consciences... So that people won't do anything to disrupt the peace because they're taught by the religion that they mustn't do sin. I have to agree on D-ninja's post about the middle age's catholic chuch... Where have i read that before? I think d-ninja posted that somewhere else before... People nowadays are so intelligent that they start to throw away something that cannot be explained by reasons though, in this case god. Anyway, i believe that every religion is good. Their teachings are solely to preserve peace in the world. If people are starting a war because of their religions, then it's their fault to not understanding their own religion. I call people like them trash... But by saying "every religion is good", i'm not recommending to combine all the religion into one. That'll be a mess... As for me, i'm a christian, so i just believe in Jesus... I choose to be a christian myself, not being forced by my family or anything, because i think this religion makes sense the most... I don't know why, but the saying "believe and you shall be saved" works for me...:P |
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Re: Religion
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@Sai : lol Sorry, but I was really pissed with their acts back then Ah, and I want to add a point that... Religions help us when we're feeling down. Coz we need something strong to support us when we feel really depressed. Trust me, it really helps you if you're thinking about suicide, religion will make you think twice. We'll never know about the future, "maybe tomorrow something bad will happen to me?". And religion is needed in times like that, it buffs you up to face the unknown tomorrow. God is really something.
Gendou City Crossover RP! ~Coming soon~
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Re: Religion
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by
on 2006-07-20 10:17:49 |
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Daedalus, the funny thing is most of the current religions in the world are based arround a single person or being. Christianity: Jesus, Buddhists:Buddah, Muslims:Mohammad, ect. They were also founded by basically one person doing something. You could appy this as a way for your average person to say that they as individuals could make a difference in society. I belive that's why the more prevalent religions are those based arround a strong central figure. "When the center does not hold, the circle falls apart."-Laozi Jomunga, Why do you suppose they go to war in the first place? One religion challenges the others beliefs and concepts. That's unacceptable for all thos people who want to seem all powerful to their subjects. If you're a leader and you're enjoying a nice religion backed rule and someone comes along and says that you're not divine, you're not going to like them much. So you go to war to stop this dissent. Sachiel, A perfect example of that would be those guy that stand in times square and yell "god is a golf club." We can't very-well go check. So when we die and see that god is in-fact a nine-iron we'll ask why didn't god send us a message. To which the response will be: "I put a guy in the busiest intersection shouting it didn't you hear?" No one knows who's right, that's why I always keep an open mind. The next time somone says to god's a peice of popcorn you might or might not look twice at that 4 gallon bucket from the movies. OwdEe sh4H, Faith is universal, religion isn't. Everyone has faith, many people have religion. What religion (or lck there-of)defines how you use your faith. You can have faith in nothing being there at all or that everything is controlled, you still have faith. You can have faith in nothinbg helping you or that something or someone is always there to give a helping hand. Faith is not religion, there's no two ways about it. They are linked but not the same. Religion is also not brainwashing, it's indoctrination, there's a difference. Brainwashing compleatly rewrites your concept of self and world, indoctrination simply creates the means to change that preception by changing your beliefs and actions. Religion indoctrinates you onto itself it does not, however, activly change you. That part is based upon how far down the rabbit hole you go. Yuki, The reason those people follow things they don't necessarily belive in is because, as you said, they need that feeling of security. People need something they can hold onto, something that they can feel safe when around. That instinct is what keeps people going eventhough they don't really follow it. That instinct doesn't care what or how you do it only that you do it. Sai, I have posted that before, can't say where but I saved it and re-poseted it. I do that a lot, saves time and prevents continuity errors. I do change it arround a bit though. H, why do you think religion is so supporting of stoping sucide for no reason. Why should your religion promote the death of a prefectly good worker. If you keep conditions so bad that it's really cheap your workers are going to be sad or depressed, say it's bad and they'll suffer more later and they won't do it. My beliefs are based arround some of the concepts put forth by Laozi. I suggest that you skim through some of the quotes by him and see if you agree on some of the points. |
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Re: Religion
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by S-a-c-h-i-e-l
on 2006-07-20 16:01:55
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Ah, so many conflicting views... This is too cool XD "...Why do you suppose they go to war in the first place? One religion challenges the others beliefs and concepts. That's unacceptable for all thos people who want to seem all powerful to their subjects. If you're a leader and you're enjoying a nice religion backed rule and someone comes along and says that you're not divine, you're not going to like them much. So you go to war to stop this dissent." -Dninja Going to war for the sake of a religion is missing the point, really. If people weren't so close-minded so often many more might see that. A defensive war I have no problem with; going to another country and picking a fight is something you should not do, under any circumstance. "I don't know why, but the saying "believe and you shall be saved" works for me...:P" -Sai Believing is only half of it. The way I see it, someone who doesn't believe God but did everything the Bible said would be more likely to get into heaven than someone who believed in God and did everything the Bible says you shouldn't. "what i remember from one of my classes are, we cannot absolutely say that the other's religion/faith etc is wrong because maybe throughout his life so far, that religion/faith etc works for him. and urs work for u." -Owdee Sh4h Saying someone's religion is flat-out wrong seems like the wrong thing to do anyhow. Sure, it's entirely possible you're right, but saying that would only end up causing more harm than good. |
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Re: Religion
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by
DaedalusMachina
on 2006-07-20 18:26:42 (edited 2006-07-20 18:27:58)
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@D-Ninja - Ah, but no! What you have described, at least with monotheistic relgions, are the teachers of that particular faith who were the most prominent. They all believe in a singular being that is of infinite wisdom... while the other's believe in several beings that are also of infinite wisdom. But... when you think about it... are all these technicalities REALLY all that necessary? You could merely say an entity or group of entities that are of high power, and humans, being the total idiots they are (come on, they can't even control their own lives, and they want to understand higher beings?) create several different myths and stories that will be preserved (and corrupted) over time, as the best explanation that they can come up with for that higher being or group of beings. Furthermore, since a human is far easier to understand than a higher being, that's the one they refer to, that's the one they quote, that's the one they follow. |
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Re: Religion
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by OwdEe sh4H
on 2006-07-20 23:00:12 (edited 2006-07-20 23:13:24)
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@d-ninja, what ur first few lines said to me on faith and religion are definitely some definitons of what the nature of faith and religion is, to you. and to some more people also. but i understand ur explaination of how both of them linked but not the same. i agree on that statement. however, i cn see that ur replies do contain some serious accusation^^ dont get the wrong idea, i merely meant that ur replies are direct and sounds to be true. hmm, i don't think H meant that religion support suicide.forgive me if i got that wrong. @dedalus, i agree on u that humans understand humans better than trying to comprehend the unknown. that's why there are phrophets in religion. to convey message, teachings to the followers. a wonder: i thought that buddhism is more like an ideology, a philosophical guide which provides how to live ur life, rather than being a religion. because if in Islam, Muslims serve Allah while christians serve Jesus, the son of God, who is seen as God as well. i jz want to know if buddhism is considered to be a religion than an ideology (maybe this isnt the suitable term either, sorry) maybe this is because i see religion as also involves serving-a-God matter. |
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