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The religion vs anti-religion thread
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Well this is a very daring thread, because people get serious when it comes to their religion. But keep Gendou forums clean and refraim from flaming. And please no long qoutes from the bible. I will comment on your religion and you can be angry, but release it in the form of an argument and not an insult. Well I dont believe in god or anything, and I find the concept rediculous. Heaven and hell are only good for good plots in stories and anime. And there is nothing special about Jesus to me. I dont know why we should count years starting from his birth. If we should start counting years after someone was born it should be the year 0065 starting after Bruce Lee was born or something. I also find buddism to be miss leading, although I dont know much about buddism, so I want to see some buddists here. Hindu and reincarnation. How did a population of a million people reincarnate into billions of people? Well then, lets throw our beliefs at each other. Gendou if you think this thread doesnt belong in your forum just delete it, but I think it will be an interesting thread for all.  Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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"I just wanna say my insights about life. For me, life is like an entrance exam where in all the things that you have done, you are doing, and will still be doing will all be judge after you die. Commiting suicide is bad because killing yourself is just like murdering. only God has the right to take away life and everything that is happening in our lives are all test if we are the right one to be with God in heaven. Remember that the reason why God created us is because He wanted to have someone to be with Him to accompany him in His lonelyness." This quote made me wanna start this thread. Point 1: If life is a exam, then whats the point of all the people who died as babies. Point 2: If life is a exam, then what about the people who grew up in bad communities. Why should "bad" people go to hell, just because they didnt grow up with a bible shoved in their face. If a guy grows up in the ghetto is it his fault it rubs of on him and he has to be condemed for eternity. Point 3: If only god has the right to take lives, wouldnt he keep us from suicide if he didnt like it. If he is so powerful and yet doesnt like it why does he let it happen. Point 4: If god is lonely whty didnt he create people in heaven without all this life on earth going too either heven or hell. Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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First of all, I dont believe in God or any supreme life, but I'm not anti-religious. I do respect other beliefs in religions/cults, whether it's Budism, Judaism, contemporary Satanism(I mean the real Satanism, not the one everyone sees on the TV about weird sacrifices :S Real Satanism doesn't have those things lol, I still cant believe how many people are still ignorants about this lol), etc... Still, even though I don't believe in any religion, I bet I have bigger moral, ethic, and empathy than most people I've encountered. Jomunga, If life is a test, then when you're giving up on your life, you're giving up on the test too. Even if a person lives has a harsh life, if he still believes and lives with his beliefs, he will go to heaven. "Bad" people go to Hell because they do "bad" things, just because some people have harder lifes, that doesn't give them the right to do those things. And God wasn't lonely, but alone. About point 1...there is no explanation for something that bad. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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On point 1 I meant if lets say if a baby dies cause of miscarriage, its life wasnt much of a test. for point 2 lets say a person is brainwashed to be assassin from birth and kills and is a bad person. Is it his fault that he is bad and must go to hell. Its not like he choose to be bad, but rather someone else raised him to be bad. Although I didnt see Gunslinger Girl, I know what it is about. All those girls are doing bad things and according to the bible they are worthy of hell, but they were brainwashed why should they go to hell. Teach us more about this conteporary satanism, sounds interesting. Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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| I understand about point 1, no life means no test. For point 2, there are some cracks on that subject, since there are many situations that its hard to explain why it should go to heaven or hell, or atleast I can't explain... I'm not exactly the best person to defend religions, since I don't believe in any myself, but jomunga, I don't mind what others believe, as long as it's not something bad, or do something bad because of it. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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God gave us free will to do what we want with our lives. We are His creations, not his creatures. That is why you have things like suicides, miscarriages, wars. About Hinduism, tho'...yeah, I always wondered if I was the only one that saw the gaping hole in the logic. If there are any Hindus on the forum that can explain that...  |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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I think the title for this thread isnt very interesting, any suggestions for a change, to maybe get more people in here. "don't mind what others believe, as long as it's not something bad, or do something bad because of it." Ya but people do bad things because of religion I.E. Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, witch trials, etc. The war in the middle east right now, religion is a major factor. What makes every one think god is good. If there was a god I would think he would be nuetral. And the way the bible describes god makes him seem like hes human. The concept of god isnt so unbelievable, but the concept of the christian god is very unbelievable. Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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by
on 2005-08-29 07:33:01 |
I think this subject is examining the wrong thing. It should be a discussion on beliefs and faith not religion. Faith is what we have whether it's in God or something else. Religion is the commercialization of faith. Religion in general preaches fear and hate not peace and love. Religion is the purvey of those who would control our souls and tell us what is right and wrong. Religion dictates what we should believe in, angels, devil a fear of God. If you have faith you don't need religion whether you are christain, jewish, muslim, bhuddist or anything else.  |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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Jomunga: As for people doing bad things in the name of religion, you're certainly correct. However let me point out that the worst atrocities in history have been perpetrated by ideologies that were either neutral towards religion or actively hostile to it. Examples-- Hitler's "final solution" aka the Holocaust. Nazism was also responsible for World War II, which was the biggest war in history. The Nazis pretty much ignored religion except when it came to Judaism. Chairman Mao's "cultural revolution" in China killed millions of people and was actively anti-religious (communists believed religion was a tool used to control the proletariat). Pol Pot's reign of terror in Cambodia killed something like a third of that nation's population. It was one of the most psychotic regimes in history. It was also communist. I did a report on it once back in high school, and believe me you DON'T want to read up on some of the stuff he did. French Revolution and the following reign of terror: also anti-religious, although they were mostly anti-aristocrat. Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was also pretty dam bad. Stalin's purges are infamous throughout the world. Again, the communists were actively anti-religious. I could go on like this for quite a while but I'm getting depressed, and I think I got my point across. I'm not denying that people do terrible things in the name of religion, mind you. One need only look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or the Sudan to see that such conflicts are not just a part of history, they are ongoing. My point is that people can use almost any ideology as a tool of hatred and murder, we're quite ingenious that way. For example, let's look at all the above stuff's ORIGINAL goals: Nazis--National Germal Socialists; rebuild the shattered economy and make Germany strong again. Communism--make everyone equal; every man guranteed a living. French Revolution--free the nation from the king's terrible oppression. Khmer Rouge (Cambodia)--build a self-sufficient agricultural-communist state. In each case, it turned out pretty badly, as I described before. Why would a religious ideology be immune? As long as there are evil men, they will twist any ideology to suit their goals. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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Lady Rin, you have a point. But, if you do have faith, religion is a way to be with others who share that faith. I've been a churchgoer ever since I was a kid, and yet I am not like you describe. It all depends on the minister and the local church as to whether organized religion is a good or a bad thing. If my minister ever tried to twist or control me, I'd leave in a heartbeat and find another church. Hmmm...love and peace, huh? Ever watch Trigun? |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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All religion started out as a set of philosophical beliefs that people took and started creating gods and other things about it. Buddhism started out as a set of beliefs about being able to achieve salvations through giving up all desires and mortal characteristics. Now, the form become too corrupted I think, but the original philosophy isnt wrong, it's just one way humanity are looking at the elephant (ever heard of the story abt the blind men and the elephant anyone?) The publicity about religion actually comes from the monotheistic religion coz it states that there is only one God and only their is the true god and everyone else's are false. It's this intolerance of others' beliefs that all this trouble through religion starts. Heck, in Christianity, the trouble comes not from not having the same god but just not the same way of looking at god. That's what silly about it. And same goes for Islam, the same monotheistic outlook bred these terrorists claiming to do the bidding of Allah. There's a few religion that dont start the trouble but the trouble caused by someone else: Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism. Yeah, Hindus are involved in violence with the Muslims but if you were attacked in the first place, the natural reaction is to retaliate right? And those in Sri Lanka who use Buddhism for their fighting aint even buddhists anyway, And about reincarnation, how can anyone be sure how many souls there are throughout the UNIVERSE? and plus the animals have souls too you know. Now when you think about it, is it just a few million turned into a billion humans? Actually, with all the killing and extinctions happening after all these centuries, where do you think the souls of those animals goes to? My belief is that they became humans and the pain of extinction are cause of increase in the numbers of homicidal killers and tyrants. It's cause and effect, you kill so many living things, it's only natural you get killed later. But I believe in another set of philosophy altogether, one that is currently free from intolerance, dogma and bad stuff like that. It has no official name, but if you are to give it a name, call it Jedi Realism. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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So, you don't like monotheistic religions because you think they're intolerant, huh? *sarcasm* Why, how intolerant of you. *sarcasm* Seriously though, saying all Christians or all Muslims are intolerant is insulting to the vast majority of people like me, who are tolerant. All too often, people's perception of a religion is coloured by the very worst members of that religion. This is my fourth post in this thread. I talk too dam much :) |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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How many here went to the tolerance museum in high school. I must say that lowered my tolerance, At least towards museums. If you want to raise tolerance against christianity, watch Maria-sama ga Miteru, after finishing that one I thought "I should turn christian just so I could meet girls like that." my point being even bad or false religions can raise good people, but I wouldnt give most credit to the religion. Jomunga eats your avatars. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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"Tolerance museum"? I never even heard of it. Still, even without going, I lost my tolerance towards museums a long time ago. And of course it's true that people don't necessarily turn out the way they do because of the religion they were raised in but that doesn't mean that religion has no influence. I know that I would not be the person I am today if I had not been a fairly active member of the church. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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by
on 2005-08-29 11:27:57 (edited 2005-08-29 11:30:43)
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Old Crow you said,"...worst atrocities in history have been perpetrated by ideologies that were either neutral towards religion or actively hostile to it". What about the crusades, perpertrated by Christains against the unbelievers. Or the Spanish Inquisition? 400 years of torture if you didn't believe in a christain god, more than a christain god, in a catholic god. The religioous right has been the focus for more atricities that you can imagine in the name of god down to killing children. Right now here today in the mid-east it's the muslims against the infidels in the west. In America it's the christain fundamentalists who are pushing for a Christain America led by the president who favors a christain America. I don't want to live in a christain America. I want to live in harmony with my neighbors. I don't care what or what they are. I only care in their friendship. I also don't see any mention of Zen or Tao. I have faith and beliefs, many of which don't fit the mainstream of thought. I am a christain my husband jewish only we believe in more than the bible or Torah teach us. Seki, I think what you call Jedi Realism is what you find Zen, an internal understanding of oneself and Tao and acceptance of that understanding that leads to peace and harmony. It is not exclusive of other beliefs and is a part of our lives along with what we accept from our religious teaching. Belief in God also implies a leap of faith and that leap of faith leads to other beliefs as well. One thread asks about alien life (Which I believe exists). There may be a thread here on mysticism as well, another belief. So if you believe in any of this what about something toward the edge. The stories and mythos of the physically unprovable. Faeries, dragons and time of magic. Those too are beliefs and if you believe in one why not others? Why not all? Thank you for an interesting morning. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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Lady Rin, you're correct that many atrocities have been perpetrated by members of a religion and have been religious in nature. However, I didn't exactly try to hide that. The point of my post was that it's evil people, not religion that is the culprit. You might as well try to look at Adolph Hitler as representing the entire German people. If you're interested in why people ordinary people go along with these sorts of atrocities (whether religious or non religious in nature) you should check out a book called "In the Name of Identity: Violence and the Need to Belong" by Amin Maalouf. Basically it says that when people feel or are made to feel that their group is threatened, whether it is their nation, their race, or their religion, they turn vicious, and will go along with all sorts of crap while sincerely believing that they're doing it in the name of self-defense. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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by Ravensender
on 2005-08-29 17:02:59
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The truth is I have no problem with people who have faith in a religion, just those who force their belief on others and use religion as an excuse for violent actions; Christianity included.
The end of the weekend is something that's inevitable... Like a test. Or the Apocalypse.
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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That's pretty much my own attitude. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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Oldcrow, how is me not liking monotheistic religion being intolerant make me intolerant? And I did not say ALL christian or Muslims are intolerant of other people's religion, I'm saying that the philosophy itself have the potential to breed such intolerance. Go read "Ramses" the novel if you have time, one of the vol. has a great explanation why a monotheistic religion have the intolerance potential. And even now, there are groups in Christianity and Islam which still clings to the intolerance of their predecessors. I forgot how many times I heard on Christian TV shows where the preacher talks about the truth of Christianity and the falsities of others. But not in a logical debate manner, these preachers were saying crap about other religions in the old manner. And hey, it's the hard truth that people always see the bad things in every thing and hardly the good thing. That's why my parents would say "dont do anything that would make the Chinese people look bad". Because a few rotten eggs in a basket can ruin the whole dozen. Lady rin you are kind of there in that Jedi Realism is similar to Zen Buddhism and Taoism, there's a few more element but I forgot what they were. And oldcrow, yes it's not the religion that is responsible it's the people in power but it's also the potential for such hijacking inherent in the philosophy of the religion. A fire does not start without something to light a fire with. |
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Re: The religion vs anti-religion thread
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by Ravensender
on 2005-08-29 17:08:26
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Great to hear that, Oldcrow. Just to add Pat Robertson is a perfect contemporary example.
The end of the weekend is something that's inevitable... Like a test. Or the Apocalypse.
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