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NASA's stupidity
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It was mentioned in the thread "Seeing starts that dont exists" that by the time we see stars in our sky they may no longer exist. That got me thinking, NASA is running this program call SETI which tries to find if there are ETs out there. I think the whole thing is a waste of time and money for a number of reasons: 1. Scientists in SETI uses radiowaves to communicate by creating a digital images. This is one stupid thing coz if light takes ages to reach us, how long do you think radiowaves will? And by the time it does reach a race of being which can pick it up, do they think we would still be around? and by the time they reply humanity may have become extinct. 2. Do the scientist believe that every civilisation out there is using the same tech as we do? I mean, if they dont have the right receivers how are they gonna know someone is calling? What if the civilisations out there are more advance than us? I dont think they would use radiowaves to communicate great distances 3. If someone do receive it but sends it back in a mode we cant pick up, how are we gonna know they replied? 4. If they do pick the msg up, what makes the scientists at NASA think that these aliens would even be bothered to reply? All in all, I think it's all just sheer arrogance that these scientists believe that every civilisation out there are the same as ours, and these scientists must believe some where in the mind that humanity is superior so why wouldnt an alien race reply back. I mean, NASA is government funded right? and that money comes from the taxpayers, so isnt this program a waste of the people's money? |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by
on 2005-08-27 20:21:53 |
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Your Stupidity: 1. RADIO WAVES ARE LIGHT. Furthermore, the purpose of SETI is not only to attempt to establish contact, but COMMUNICATION. If i write something, then die (example: Shakespeare) and you read it, i have successfully communicated with you, wether im dead or alive. You may not find this of importance, but there are many people who do. 2. Light (radio waves) is an ideal medium for communication. the very nature of light is that it can travel though space/time similar to a wave, but needs no medium on which to travel. this makes it universal as well. of course, choosing the method of communication with unknown intelligence is a difficult task. scientists who study the universe have found various fundamental characteristics which any advanced alien civilization would undoubtedly also have discovered. simply, we send out information encoded in an encryption that was designed to be easy to break. thats as good as you can do! 3. if someone sends you an email in english, do you reply in japanese? no, that would be retarded. 4. its still worth a try, right? maybe not to you, but to many people it is. fine, next time there is an election, vote for someone who will spend your taxes on more important things, like raping the planet and killing people in other countries. that will be a great world. 
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Radio waves are not light. I'm pretty darn sure on this point. Radio waves are electromagnetic waves, and so is light, but the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, which is what most people mean when they say "light", is a totally different portion of the spectrum than the "radio" portion. So, they are two very different aspects of the spectrum and are not really the same thing at all... Uhhh...if I disagree with Gendou-sama, will something bad happen to me? *looks around uneasily*  |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by
on 2005-08-27 22:07:54 (edited 2005-08-27 22:11:54)
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(see http://www.valemount.com/joel/lightoptics/glossary.htm) Radio Waves: A form of light with a frequency that is much lower than visual Light. radio waves, micro waves, gamma rays, ultra violet, visible light, infrared, all are names for the same thing, just at different frequencies. we call this thing electromagnetic waves or photons or just "light" in layman speech. there is no LINE in nature separating the wavelengths of light. we have come up with words to describe the different wavelengths because it is useful for us in describing and understanding phenomena. in fact, it is easy to show that the spectrum is continuous (as opposed to punctuated) challenging a scientist is respectable, no worries.
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Ok, my bad on the radiowaves part. Damn, I just failed highschool physics. But what's the point of establishing a communication with an alien race when our own affairs on Earth are not in order. I'm not saying the United States' government should spend the money for SETI on things like killing people and our planet but they could use that money to help make the US economy stronger right? Or use it in foreign aid? Or maybe on other research that can make the world a better place, such as developing nuclear fusion power instead of fission then create a generator to create endless energy supply. But even though radiowaves travel at speed of light, but it really depends on the technology of the alien races right? If they dont have the satellite dishes that we do, how are they gonna pick it up and distinguish it from the Universe' natural noise? Yeah, if someone sends an email to me in English, if I know English I would reply in English but what if I dont know English? So that is the case with any alien races out there. The messages NASA sent might not be decipherable to them. And even if they reply, how are NASA going to detect it? Especially if we dont have the right equipment to receive the transmission? In fact, there is a communication from an alien race, it's visual but no one even recognize it. The communication is on the Cydonia complex on Mars, it's in the myths of the ancient people when they talk about gods coming from above. Ok, I might sound like von Daniken or Richard Hoagland but heck, possible communication from alien races are there in front of NASA and yet nothing is being done about it and what's more people who are suggesting we should investigate these communications are ridiculed by those who are searching. The people in SETI are standing on a whale fishing for minnows. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by
on 2005-08-28 18:03:05 (edited 2005-08-28 18:04:48)
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making the US economy stronger is an arguably wasteful use of money. things which make our economy strong are not necessarily good for the planet, or our species, as a whole. foreign aid is often used as an excuse to make foreign countries indebted to the US, usually with the aforementioned goal in mind. there is little doubt in my mind that fusion power is the way to go, and i agree that it would be a good use of a dollar. so would saving the rain forest. call me a hippie. The The Cydonia Complex (see image) is nothing more than a pile of rocks. People see faces in the clouds all the time. Humans are good at noticing patterns in our surroundings. It is tempting to attribute illness to magic and weather to the gods, but this is all mystical bull crap. I suggest you read Carl Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World". More info on Cydonia: http://www.enterprisemission.com/catbox.htm
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Yeah, Gendou's right, the Mars orbiters have taken many pictures of Cydonia and there's nothing there but a natural formation that looks like a face. It's been thouroughly debunked. BTW Gendou, your image-link doesn't work (or at least it didn't work for me). I agree though, that SETI might not be the most practical application of money. I think that the money should go into other, more useful NASA programs, like going to the moon and Mars. That's just about the only part of Bush's agenda that I agree with. He wants to build a base on the moon and eventually send explorers to Mars. We should be trying as hard as possible to colonize space, not farting around with the useless, obsolete shuttle program, and working on an International Space Station that never gets done. And for the last few years we haven't even been doing that. The shuttles have been grounded and Russian Soyuz spacecraft have been the only things keeping humanity's presence in space alive. It's shameful. We went to the moon a few times and decided we'd had enough. If they could go to the moon with 1960s era technology, we could go so much further now! And NASA wastes their funding doing endless "research Missions" that go nowhere. So just this once I'll say "Go Bush! I'm right behind you, man!" ...Oops, that kind of turned into a rant, didn't it? *laughs* |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by EricSoLazy
on 2005-08-28 19:50:35
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Think about what you just said and that is the main problem of people who dont understand the physics and engineering of technogoly in space, if we cant even perfect a means of passing through our atmoshpere after 20 years and building a "tiny" station that is not made to hold people for extended periods of time then how would we hope to build a moon base or send people to mars. Every shuttle launch takes over a couple billion dollars and sends a limited payload each time and a crew about the size 6 people, to build a base, thats insane. If you cant build a house you dont give up and try a build skyscraper.. Bush is an idiot and tried to build up another thing like the space race to try and divert the american people from real issues. I love space, but there are huge limitations of technogly and phyiscal law that make it near impossible to travel/colonize. As for NASA, there are more problems with them than most people know, they have no budget, all work is contracted out, its as if its just become a empty shell that only supervises launches.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by IndigoKrow
on 2005-08-28 21:22:01
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Eric's right. And not only is it highly improbable that a moon base can be built, going to mars is really neaar impossible when you think about it. It would take months to get there, which poses a problem becasue our ships cant carry a food payload that big, nor do we have effective cryogenic technology yet. Even if we id we wuldnt be able to carry fuel enough to keep cryo going for several months. Secondly with the alien thing, very little is actually needed to communicate with them. All that's needed is to begin simple and set a precedent. teach language to themlike you would a 3 year old with word picture association. Fore example we might begin communicating with something like thi: o = one circle ooo = three cicles o = 1 circle ooo = 3 circles with even a very simple communicae such as that, we could, in a single message, teach them number and shape basics and thus setting a precedent for learning. w00t aliens! =D |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Eric's not really right. The reason the International Space Station is going nowhere is more because of lack of funds than lack of ability. Like I said before, if we can go to the moon over and over with 1960s tech, we can do much more now. Also, the space shuttle design is way obsolete, it was finalized more than a decade ago and technology has advanced a lot since then. We could build much better ships if we really tried. Also, a lot of the payload problem for a Mars mission could be solved by launching from a base on the moon (lower gravity). The whole point of the moonbase is for it to act as a stepping stone for further exploration. IndigoKrow: why is it improbable for a moonbase to be built? We've had the tech for generations. I think most of the problem lies with getting naysayers like you to fund it. Also, it's quite true that today's ships can't carry a big enough payload to go to Mars. But we wouldn't be using the shuttle or the Soyuz to go there, that's not what they're designed for at all. When we do go, we're going to need to design a new ship for the mission. And before you can say something about the effects of months of weightlessness on an astronaut, it's quite possible to design a ship with a spinning section that will provide centrifugal "gravity". And I know that SETI doesn't cost all that much, it's just that I was responding to the original post, which says that SETI doesn't have any practical value. I DO think the money could be better spent elsewhere. Also, communicating with aliens would not be nearly as easy as you think. There are a number of problems with your method, the most notable one being that depending on where they were it might take thousands or even millions of years for communications between us. Other people have mentioned some of the other problems in previous posts, and anyway I don't feel like typing anymore anyway. If anyone has any questions about anything I've said, please post them and I'll do my best to answer them. Geez, that was turning into a flame post for a while. Sorry, IndigoKrow. We crows should stick together more, I guess. :P |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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well gendou, you can be pessimisting about it but I still think the money could be spent in other more important areas of life. It's the politicians that's the problem plus people's greed. As I said, there are still so many things us humans havent even solved yet, try world peace for instance. I just dont think we should spend time trying to reach the stars when our foundations are not even stable or properly built. I dont think Cydonia is just a pile of rocks. Sure that's what it looks like but according to those that was into the matter, the photos were not immediately released by NASA but a while after they photographed it so some are accusing NASA of doctoring the images. Still even if they didnt doctor the images, what do you think happens to a monumental artifact when it is exposed to the elements on Mars? It would get eroded til you can make out the monument. It's like looking at a stretched out small pic on comp close up, u cant see anything but if you look from faraway you can make out the image. it's like that. plus the layout of the monuments of the complex shows complex mathematical calculations, what do you think the chance of nature achieving such correlations to mathematical constructions? The mathematics are of the tetrihedral mathematic type too and that's high level maths, the chances of that happening accidentally in nature is very small. And the moon, Hoagland showed some photos he obtained from NASA once. The blurry images showed some sort of artifical construction on the Moon as well, and well worn down by erosion, one of them showed this tall thing at a height usually not possible naturally in the Moon environment. Plus there was a photograph of a layout that kinda look like what Hiroshima looked like after it's been bombed. Then again, some scientists have discovered in the data gained when a laser was shot at the Moon and showed anomalies that suggest that the Moon is hollow inside. Yeah, it probably sounds like it's from Beast Wars but the possibility that the Moon is artificially constructed or placed there exists. Then you take in the rumour that on one of their missions, the Apollo astronauts seen an actual alien base on the darkside of the Moon but were told to keep quiet by the military. Sounds like crap? but NASA's charter clearly says that on encounter with aliens or signs of alien existence, NASA is forbidden to release the knowledge. In case such knowledge would cause mass hysteria in the world the NASA charter said. The signs of aliens are there just that we are too blind to recognize it even if it hit us in our face. Spending money looking far while actually it's closer than anyone thinks. But going to Mars from the Moon aint impossible, it's actually the best way coz gravity wont be much in the calculations and larger spaceships can be built in a shipyard on the Moon since there aint weight restrictions to consider, the trouble is just how to get construction materials up to the Moon. But once a plant is set up there, scientists can just extract raw material from the Moon and use it to create required stuff for construction. The money for SETI actually should instead go to research on better propulsionary systems to decrease the time for interplanetary travel. In fact, the mathematics shown in the Cydonia complex according to Hoagland actually provides the clue on how to create a much faster and efficient propulsion system in its tetrahedral maths. I mean, if the face is not real then there is still D&M Pyramid which has a geometrical pentagonal shape. the chance of a polygon naturally formed through erosion is almost nil. As i said, you have to take in to account that erosion occurs on Mars. Which makes it more important that a Mars mission succeeds coz after more years, those things aint gonna be there to check out. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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I think NASA didn't want to release the images because they would just fuel the kind of tabloid news articles and stuff that they fueled anyway. Also...the moon is hollow? I think that that's just about the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Cydonia is one thing but how can you believe stuff like the moon being hollow long enough to repeat it? But anyway, checking out Cydonia IS a good reason to fund a Mars mission (among others). Personally I think it's just a pile of rocks, but if an investigation will make people happy then go for it. As for artificial structures on the moon, I'll believe it when I see it. When I see it someplace other than a tabloid newspaper that is. It doesn't make sense to me about NASA's charter. Are you sure you have that right? I'd think that finding aliens would be one way for NASA to get a LOT more funding :) All Scientists want funding, it's their reason to life. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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The findings for a hollow moon i'm referring to are recent events, I think it was last year. The calculations were done in a Taiwan university and it showed physical anomalies that suggest a hollow Moon or at least hollow enough to defy the normal structures of a terrestrial planetary body. Yes, that part in the NASA's charter is correct, it was recited by Hoagland in his presentation on an artifical base on the Moon. The scientists might want the publicity for its funding but the US military dont want such discoveries be known. If known, other countries would want a piece of it. The US military of course would want its hands on it first, find out all it can about it to gain a tech advantage over other countries. Sometimes the most incredible things is actually real. Means that you just have to keep an open mind. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Fortunately, NASA's not the only game in town. If these things are real, they will be eventually authenticated, if not by NASA then by the European Space Agency, the fledgeling Chinese space program, or by an independent observatory. The same goes for things like a mission to Mars or a base on the moon. If NASA won't do it then someone else will. I'd bet on the Chinese, since they really seem to be serious about getting into space: it's a great way for their country to gain prestige and international recognition as something other than a recent communist state with a worryingly strong economy. Hopefully, competition from the Chinese will make NASA and America work harder in space to avoid being shown up. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by
on 2005-08-29 12:06:13 |
I think Burt Rutan is going to get to the moon first. Mars as well.  |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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I'm ashamed to admit my ignorance...who's Burt Rutan? |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by IndigoKrow
on 2005-08-29 15:28:12
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I know that we crows shold stick together and your points were veryvalid oldcrow, but i still must defend my point that a moon base is improbable and that the way of aien communicae is still good (even if it is just through a relative measure). It's tough to find the people who are capable of both the physical and mental challenges of the space program. Very few are able to understand rocket science and be able to sustain the constant push of 4-7 g's that will be exerted onto them. Also, their social health must be impertive considering that he will have to be able to put up with the same 5 or 6 people 90% of the time. Its an exercise is islationism and social subsitence. Also, as dubious as this may sound, we did not have the technology back then o.0.We had the technology to land on the moon, but lacked the technology to stay on it for a sustained period of time, which is required if we expect to build a station up there. It, like with mars, would reuire a much larger payload than we have availble to keep that many peole up there that long. It would require landing units that can re-lunch to earth, generators sufficient to keep them running for several months, building materials, construction machines, food (i love foo =D), water, some for of toiletry, and some way to dispose of waste (there are probably more). Also, taking frequent trips would be too costly unless we had a MAJOR budget overhaul that was completly centered on the space program. Not that that wouldnt be cool or anything but the chances of congress ratifying it are pretty slim. Lastly, i still believe my way of communicating with aliens is the easiest. Besides, it's not like any other way of communicating could take any less time considering that the messages are already being relayed at light speed. |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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Considering the materials needed, it does seem possible. But like my dad once said, it's not always about having enough material. The event he likes to quote is during WWII when an English military squad were ambushed and surrounded on top of a hill by Japanese forces. All the allied countries were like "no, it's impossible to help them, considering all the material and people needed, it will be years to get there and the English squad will be dead by then. But in the end, the Chinese forces under Chiang Kai-shek said 'give me the equipment I require and I shall free them within a few weeks' and the Chinese forces did and free the English" My point being that having not enough resources is not a valid reason for not doing something by saying it's impossible or improbable. That's why the Chinese might be the first ones to establish a base on the Moon. But that's just an assumptions. In my belief, the construction of the Moon base will have to bring together many countries together in a joint venture, meaning that the base on the Moon would be the start point in achieving world unity and peace. Of course, if they do build a Moon base, hopefully they wont make a United Earth Sphere Alliance like in the anime too. hehe |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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IndigoKrow: you're right about the difficulties with funding. Technologically we could certainly do it but it will cost a LOT. As for communicating with aliens...first we'll have to find them. In that other thread, weren't you saying how improbable an event life is? And intelligent life would be even more rare, leading me to believe that there probably aren't any aliens within "talking distance." In fact, it's an open question whether even humans qualify as "intelligent life" if you read the news regularly (which I do). Maybe I'll make a new thread about that... |
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Re: NASA's stupidity
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by
on 2005-08-29 18:35:06 |
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Burt Rutan is the designer of Spaceship One, the first spacecraft to leave earths atmosphere, return and launce again in less that 2 weeks. We aren't going to go into space if the government is in control. Space is for the people and it is the people who are putting us there. |
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