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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by
on 2006-11-07 14:57:46 (edited 2006-11-07 14:58:38)
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It certainly matters to Igor, Phillip, and all others who care about either website! My traffic contribution to animelyrics.* is substantial. Also, they may have the same lyrics for now, but users might submit content to one, or the other, but not necessarily both. 
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by pigoutgirl8
on 2006-11-07 14:55:29
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Does it really matter though? Both websites have the same lyrics.
'If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by
on 2006-11-07 13:25:34 (edited 2006-11-07 13:25:46)
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It occurs to me that a wiki solution to the lyrics could be very effective at solving the problem of low-quality error-abundant transcriptions/translations. There is currently such a project with coding in progress here at gendou.com, although the scope would be limited by the songs available for download.
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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The site is out of date and slow to get back up-to-date because of the sheer volume of bad submissions we get. For every one or two good submissions, there's probably at least 50 submissions from people who obviously copy/pasted the lyrics from some other site, didn't read the rules, submitted a song we already had the lyrics for, couldn't even spell the series title properly, etc etc etc The backlog is the fault of users, not administration. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by sakura yuki
on 2006-11-07 10:55:08
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i think there's one thing that i still am annoyed with both sites. the lyrics are not up to date. it takes ages to see an anime lyric up on the net... as in general, i don't think it's updated much at all... i had to refer to other sites to find the lyrics that i want... can u guyzs keep the site to date? because i see no point in visiting ur site anymore... with or without ur controversial issue.. if this minor problem isn't even solved. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by
on 2006-11-06 12:16:29 |
I still think we should say screw it and slave away at making our own lyrics and/or contacting the contributors asking if we could use their lyrics. This is me taking no sides and coming up with an idea that doesn't feed either side and is in the (somewhat?) best interest in this website. I guess. :P    |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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| ...Somehow, I find it sad that they would argue over something like this. Anime, in its purest meaning, should be about art and entertainment rather than making money. Most of the material at AnimeLyrics is what others have contributed. Without the community of fans, all anime sites (even Gendou's) would eventually fail. AnimeLyrics should be about providing information for the otaku, not making money. I'm disappointed in them... I do hope that this situation is resolved gracefully and without ill will. AnimeLyrics is such a useful resource. I don't intend to take sides regarding who is right or wrong- I just hope that they will settle this so that everyone can be happy. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by
on 2006-11-06 09:29:24 |
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animelyrics.com would generate negligible traffic since they don't serve media. although, the site surely requires a dedicated server because of its popularity. it is probably hosted on a $99/mo machine.
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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The new AnimeLyrics.com seems to have most or all of the lyrics, but it still has some odd quirks. For example, the letter "n" is missing from some descriptions for no particular reason (leading to words like "Compositio" and "Arragemet"). Also, I may have only contributed 3 lyrics, but I'm not credited for any of them on AL.com even though I am on AL.tv. And about this whole $32,000 business, is that before or after server and bandwidth fees? It certainly can't be cheap to run a site with that much traffic, so it's not like pmak was running ads solely for profit. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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| Note: At this moment, www.animelyrics.com is up and running. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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As Cardcaptor Raa'Shaun mentioned, right now, Animelyrics.com is down. (I found this out when trying to use the lyrics for Michiyuki for singing lol.) Animelyrics.tv is the same as it .com used to be, and for the moment, is up and running. When both are up and running, make a decision. Right now, just going .com because of loyalty is problematic because it's missing half of it's lyrics. However, someone else also mentioned, a private database would solve this problem. I'm not saying you should particularly make it, as I know you have your hands full with this site. And I personally love this site lol. But perhaps telling people you'd like for a database of perhaps just the songs you have HERE might be a good idea. New songs can have their lyrics added and such. Then again, this is just my two cents. I'm not saying side with either one, or to make a hasty decision and leave them both. Either way you look at it, both are a reliable source for quite a few lyrics. In the end, the decision is not ours to make, but yours. After reading the entire thread, I've wanted to pull my hair out. It sounds like there have been some lies tossed around, pulled back, then some reconciliations. However, I do think that Phillip and Igor actually have to sit down and actually TALK about the decision. Xazy and Sailor Bacon SHOULD have been compensated for their work, not just worked like dogs x.x; ...And I've rambled enough. See y'all on the flip side. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by
on 2006-11-05 14:12:29 |
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Remaining strictly professional, I would say to go with the site that shows the highest probability of remaing operated in a mannor that would be deemed just and appropriate. Also taking into consideration which one has/will have the larger database after the conclusion. There is always, as riceboks pointed out, to simply remove all links to either database and solely depend on the internal one. Applying morality and judgement, was it right for Philip to remove Igor's ads from the site: From what it sounds like what happend was that Philip removed the ads and replaced them with his own (please correct me if I'm wrong) which as his not owning the site is a tad on the illegal side. It is comparable to a hacker getting a passcode to edit a random site (i.e. google, however unlikely) and changed the ads on the site with their own. That could result in legal actions taken against the domain's owner for contract infrindgement on the grounds of early termination of their ad. It would then be in legal bounds for the domain owner to find this hacker and prosecute for the vandalism, loss of revinue, damages, and other charges. Also I believe there are federal charges if this hacker were to make a profit off of such an action. As to the "rightness" of the action on the part of Philip, if Igor had entered into a contract with an advertising company Philip would be bound by the agreements set forth in such a contract regarding the posting of ads. Philip would not be required to host the ads on his server. He would, however, be required to have them posted under the domain (which, to as my understanding, was owned by Igor). Philip would be able to host his onw ads under his own server, he would not be allowed to generate profit by posting them under a domain that he did not own or have contractual agreements with. If he were to do this there could be legal action on the part of the domain owner on the grounds of contract violation. As per the question on is right for Igor to use the content hosted on Philip's server under his own domain by retrival through means of a web crawler to which neither had intellectual property: no, legal yes (provisionary) Intellectual property - As defined by Article 2, section (viii), of the Convention Establishing the World Intellectual Property Organization, done at Stockholm, July 14, 1967, "intellectual property" shall include the rights relating to: literary, artistic and scientific works, performances of performing artists, phonograms, and broadcasts, inventions in all fields of human endeavor, scientific discoveries, industrial designs, trademarks, service marks, and commercial names and designations, protection against unfair competition, and all other rights resulting from intellectual activity in the industrial, scientific, literary or artistic fields. As to claims by SailorBacon ro having intellectual property rights, in all reality he does not own them either. All rights go to the creators of the various works (i.e. Philip gets rights on his workss for the page, Igor his, and the composers/artists that wrote the lyrics get the rights to them) Those who make the various works hold the intellectual property rights. work - in copyright law, a universal phrase used for any product of expression that might be protected under copyright, including: a book, a poem, a composition, a movie, a video, an audio recording, a letter, a map, an architectural drawing, a compilation, a computer file, a computer program, an email message, a photograph, a painting, a statue, and many others, fixed in forms now known or yet to be developed. In all legality it matters not where you get the information so long as you credit the holders of the rights and avoid plagarism. plagiarism - Using the ideas or words of others without acknowledging the source. This is true even if the ideas of someone else are paraphrased or summarized. Igor may avoid plagarism by simply saying who holds the lyrical rights and the source from which he aquired the lyrics. He does need to do this or he will be looking at a lot more than a bunch of angry fans. In all reality Philip needs to do this as well. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by Cardcaptor Raa'Shaun
on 2006-11-05 14:09:09
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Mind you, the following is based on my knowledge in partnerships and is my personal opinion. As we say on Slashdot, IANAL ^_^ Although I believe that both sides acted in error here, I personally will use animelyrics.tv seeing as it is actually still online. If this was an equal partnership, which I believe from reading everything that has been posted so far, everyone involved should have equal rights to money and products generated i.e. the ad revenue and the database. The terms of the partnership may have been unfair and probably should have been handled a bit more delicately between the parties however, as long as the founder (SailorBacon) has no objections to them using the database as it's been built off of his original work, they both should have the right to use the database as it was when the partnership dissolved. So to answer Gendou's questions to us users: 1: I think that you should direct to animelyrics.tv for now at least since it's the one that's working and make a 'quality of the website' based decision if they both get up and running. 2: I think that removing the ads without informing the owner of said ads was a bit shady. What should have been done is splitting the profits from the ads after site costs. Note: When you have a single site maintainer that is working for free and the site is making money, it's probably best to start paying the maintainer. Suddenly having the maintainer leave does nothing good for a website. 3: As I said in my opinion above, I believe that they both have the right to use the database, if and only if, SailorBacon doesn't object to the database that he started being used in this way.
From the new master of the cards, have a wonderful anime filled day ^_^
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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| I'm staying neutral on this one (not enough information)...although this article explains why AnimeLyrics has constantly been saying for the past few days that the site is down for maintenance. Sounds like that the bit about maintenance is a lie... |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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This will probably be my last response to this thread, though I'll keep watching it; I just want to echo Sailor Bacon here: "both of them have made money off my work in some form or another, and there is a big debate as to which of the TWO OF THEM "owns" the lyrics database when obviously the correct answer is "neither"." At this point I've received apologies from both Pmak and Kaitou. Both have admitted to screwing up. As of now only Kaitou has offered me compensation for past (?) and future work; pmak assumes I will keep working with the .tv site as though nothing has changed (...ahem). I'm all for forgiveness where it's due and I don't hold any lasting negative feelings towards anyone despite being immensely frustrated by everything. I keep to my word that I'm going to wait at least a week before bringing my final decision. I think that will be sufficient time to think, let everyone finish saying anything they have to say, and most importantly give me time to work on honestly more important things (like a project this whole animelyrics situation has left me unmotivated to work on but is due Wednesday whether I like it or not). |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by belldandy428
on 2006-11-04 16:45:10
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at the moment we're reconstructing our own database. Pmak never intimated that it was anyone elses but his own when we offered to pay him for it. So we didn't know any different. He never told us that anyone other than him actually wrote it. As to what officially happened to the site, no one knew other than Pmak. We sent him an email with our final offer on the 31st, and he took it down yesterday and has not contacted us. So we were just as surprised as you were that it was taken down and the redirect put up. I will appologize again for not contacting you all, but frankly I personally had no idea who was involved in the site and in what manner. Should we have researched it, yes, was this handled perfectly? no. It happened quickly, and we also didn't want it to seem like we were trying to do this in a back hand way and sneak around to talk to you guys behind PMaks backs. Now that its all in the open the shoulda/woulda/coulda's are very easy to spot. I'm sorry you were annoyed or upset by anything that has taken place, and if I didn't care or wasn't trying to make this right, I wouldn't have registered here or posted. Nor would Kaitou have even responded to the email Gendou sent him. We're trying to do the right thing, now that we know what it is. At the time we were unaware. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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I don't think you should side with anyone, that the lyrics should be provided by members here who know how to speak/read/translate Japanese, that way we stay out of any controversies.
"Do, or do not. There is no try." ~Yoda
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by SailorBacon
on 2006-11-04 16:12:10
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I think what annoys me about this whole situation is that this database of lyrics belongs neither to pmak nor to kaitou ace. This original database (and I'm talking about the lyrics, not the site code), was 100% completely provided by me, which was in turn provided to me by all of the submissions to SBASLH. To this day, neither pmak nor kaitou ace have really handled lyric submissions nor was it their name and original content that drew the audience to the site. And yet despite all of this, both of them have made money off my work in some form or another, and there is a big debate as to which of the TWO OF THEM "owns" the lyrics database when obviously the correct answer is "neither". The lyrical database is entirely the work of myself, xazy, lockevanish, and everyone who has submitted anything to the site. This is what angers me about this, considering that I found out from neither of these individuals what was going on and instead found out from RL friends asking me wtf was going on with the site. It's sad when the guy who originally brought it all knows less than random internet users about a situation he SHOULD be so involved in. |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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by belldandy428
on 2006-11-04 14:27:23
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Kaitou is very passive agressive, I am not. He even said in an email to Pmak that he should have yanked the site in 2003 when he did that. And hind sight is 20/20. You're right, we should have. We were, at that time, still running our forefather sites, tuxy and Animeglobe. Those sites are not really around anymore and we've finally come into our own with Animegalleries.net and AnimeForum. At the time we really couldn't do anything, and what good would have pulling the sites done us? Kaitou, the eternal optimist, at the time thought that things would work out. We didn't realize this is how it would come to pass. I totally agree that you can't throw away a community that you worked hard to build. But please know that we harbor no hard feelings towards anyone on the matter. We do recognize the work that you did to make Lyrics what it was, and wish for you to continue that work with us. If you decide not to, we won't bother you nor feel you did anything other than follow your gut on the issue. I appreciate your appology about the statements made about us. Stuff like this never goes over well, especially when its so public. We never expected this to go quietly, but we hoped it wouldn't go over in a mean spirited way. We look forward to hearing your decision Xazy, and I do hope, hey you can't blame me!, that I can look forward to working with you. <3 |
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Re: The Animelyrics.com Controversy
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I've been contacted by both parties and my current stance is that I'm not making any decisions until everyone comes clean with me. I'm seeing a lot of things said here that are totally bogus to me (okay, Kaitou was blocked from the site back in... 2003? He still owned the domain, he could have done something about it way back then if it was an issue). On the other hand, I'm willing to believe that he would have comped me if he had been able to, and that he would comp me if I kept on with him. On pmak's side, I've heard about his business practices AND I think it should have been obvious to him after a time that I was the one in charge, not Sailor Bacon... but I still have ties to (what is now) animelyrics.tv, and the forums in particular, so it's not like I can just throw it out. Obviously I have a lot more than that to consider as well. I expect it will be at least a week before I make any kind of solid decision. |